helium delivery. put it on my spark card! [ pop! ] [ garth ] why settle for less? great businesses deserve great rewards! awesome!!! [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with 2% cashack or double miles on every purchase, every day! what iyour wallet? neil: welcome everybody. i'm neil cavvto coming to you from beautiful los angeles california, tonight. the reason why we're here, a couple of things. we're focusing on the most taxed state in the country. in fact it got a little bit more so of at recent election. two propositions approved by voters. one calls for hike in taxes on so-called rich at 250,000 and over and another calls for hike in sales taxes that affects pretty much everyone. the argument went something like this. we cut pretty much all we could cut and we were still knee deep in a lot of messy stuff. so the only solution is to

raise taxes and maybe get this economy moving. say what you will. california does seem to be showing the first seedlings of improvement. activity picking up here. home sales picking up here. retail sales picking up here. not dramatically. when a third of voters say things are getting better and they're more confident they will get better, well that might seem very anemic to you, it is double what it was a little more than a year ago. so progress in this western state where they seem to favor of late raising taxes more than they do cutting spending. just that spread to washington in era we're told with ongoing fiscal talks they might be weighed more towards tax hikes than spending cuts. we thought we would be fair and balanced about this with two california governors, a democrat and republican. you should recognize both. democrat gray davis and republican pete wilson. good to have you. >> thank you, neil. >> good to be with you, neil.

neil: thank you, governor davis. since you're not with me, governor davis, in the studio here but governor wilson is i'm going to him first. the thing i will raise with you, governor wilson, what i'm noticing going on in this state. clearly a pickup in activity. things getting a little bit better the by point of comparison that is off a horrible environment but it is still getting better. it is getting better because taxes are going to go up? >> good god no. that's not going to help things. it will make them worse. and there is a mild improvement. i would hope for a strong improvement. i don't expect to see it. and what has just been done is not going to improve things. sadly, it will make california even less competitive than before. neil: voters must have known that was the talk and advertising against these propositions when they started? >> well they --. neil: obviously voters thought otherwise. >> hard to know what they think. i thought i, i used to think i knew but, in the old days

they were not crazy about taxes but i think there's been a shift. i think more and more people think they will not have to bear the burden. and therefore, why not. and the other thing was that frankly governor brown used education as a hostage, saying that it was necessary to avoid almost 6 billion in cuts to education. i don't accept that. there were a lot of things he could have cut. there are a lot of things that are not necessary and i mean the bullet train is one glaring example. but the fact of the matter is --. neil: was an effective issue and he won on it. >> he did, there is no question about that. neil: governor davis, let me explore that with you a little bit more here. now there is this idea that maybe this is a trend? we certainly see it in washington the president did get reelected you argues as some republicans have, all that happened the status quo

remains of the having said that you could make a argument the president won support for going ahead on hiking taxes on wealthy. wealthy folks might disagree but he won endorsement for that. democrats are seizing on this now in washington saying this is justification for a lot more tax hikes. look at california, they're doing it, seems to be working. what do you say about that? >> well i don't think you should misread what happened with proposition 30. first of all jerry brown deserves all the credit. he wrote the initiative. he understood education is in our dna. part of the reason why we're the hub of innovation in america, apple, google, twitter, facebooks will lead in our research universities get cut much more. this was a seminal event for california and california said okay, in that case we'll tax ourselves. neil: fear game, governor. that sound like a fear game. sayinggkids and future is compromised as a result it is a fear tactic, right? >> there was some fear involved, no question. there was a lot of truth involved, neil.

education is the reason why a lot of these great companies are here. go to washington. there is no question that president obama said the rich will pay more if i'm elected. the question is, can you get a compromise? republicans give up their opposition to tax increase, democrats are willing to cut spending they cherish realize part of the deal to avoid america borrowing --. neil: but they're not doing that latter part. that is what worries me. maybe they will. maybe something is going on behind closed doors i'm not seeing governor but they're not doing that. >> big question was, is prop 30 is this passage a harbinger of good news and we'll somehow avoid the fiscal cliff. i think it might be. it will require both sides to realize america should take priority over your party, being republican and democrat. we can't keep borrowing 40 cents out of every dollar without becoming a debtor nation and engaging in a slow dim minute news of out influence and power around the world. i think a seminal event at

the federal level as well. neil: governor wilson, at least unlike washington, here in california you have guys been doing a lot of cutting. you could cut a lot more i think. i will say this, you at least practiced that. washington has not. where are you, when i see some of these deals to broker end of year cliff avoider is that it is weighed heavily toward tax hikes with the promise being that we'll address spending cuts. i know how promises go about spending cuts. they're very much like i'm diet promises. i'm not confident. >> well, with every reason because we have on about in deficit in this state now for a decade and, i don't believe those promises either. there has been some cutting but it is cutting after there was enormous spending way beyond what was permitted by the constitution. i mean deficit spending is a violation of the state

constitution. do they care about that in sacramento? they blow right by it. neil: but you don't think what is going on here now, governor, governor davis in a second, is a harbinger? in other words maybe voters here as they have elsewhere, rightly or wrongly are saying you know what? we cut a lot or tried to cut. we never make much progress on it. i guess only thing to do to avoid fiscal armageddon is just hike taxes. we hope it is not on us. we'll start going after the rich. >> that is number one class warfare. and number two you keep piling up the debt. ultimately you're in a position, as we are in today at the federal level, where most of the debt isn't even on the books. neil: that's right. >> i mean what is said to be the national debt is about one fifth of the actual national debt. neil: you're right. unfunded liabilities and medicare, medicaid. >> medicare, medicaid, neil: you only boom your way out of that, right? governor davis, what do you

see now that could boom us out of this? because that's the really only way. you can only cut so much, i don't know. there is a lot more roommto cut i think but you're closer to this an than i am. in order to help thing according to governor wilson's point you need to grow. i don't see any prescriptions in this state or for that matter in washington that hints of a growth strategy. >> well, first of all let's give credit where credit is due. i think you hinted at this, neil. california cut $11 billion out of its budget. $25 billion. governor cut 11 doll billion. he raised taxes 6 billion. he didn't go to voters without doing everything he could to make pension reform changes or substantial cuts. i'm not sure that happened in washington. i do not believe this is open door policy and every tax will be passed. people said this is one-time important event. cutting universities in particular will threaten our

innovation. neil: i never buy temporary. i never buy temporary, do you? >> seven years temporary? neil: i worry about that we can argue over that. my point is the fiscal cliff will be avoided if both parties realize that america's survival depends on them giving up something important to them. neil: but if only one side gives up, governor, that's what i worry about. >> there won't be a deal. there won't be a deal if only one side gives up. neil: well that is a point. where do we go the end. year and it goes kablooey. is it the end of the year? >> it will be and a recession will ensue. neil: do you think democrat might secretly want that? >> well, if so, i don't want it. neil: no, but my point is, everything is scorched earth. they rebuild to their liking to a tax code to their liking. you could argue -- >> you can do that simply by negotiation. neil: senator patty murray say there is a logic to that. do you think there is a logic?

>> no. what is logical is a negotiation in which you can increase revenues by actually decreasing rates. neil: do you agree with that, governor davis? we can avoid this without that? >> i think it is all about the math. i know governor wilson and i will be paying the highest tax rate and i am happy to be part of people that will bear a larger burden because i think we had fantastic opportunities. it doesn't really matter how you get the revenue. neil: you're paying highest tax rate right now? >> sure. neil: you go, guys. >> i am. and i voted for proposition 30. neil: i found out other anchors at fox are getting paid. good for you. >> good for you. neil, we're for you getting paid more. governor wilson and i can agree on that. but the point is america has to realize we can't be all things to all people. we can still be a great nation and do great things. we have to rein in our appetite to all things to all people. neil: well, you know i will

tell you as you speak of an age where reason and thought prevailed in each party, i want to thank you both for coming. honored to have you. >> a pleasure. neil: meanwhile they're having trouble cutting a deal in washington. you always wonder what would jesus do? whose side would he take? imagine that? whose side would jesus take? pastor rick warren will tell us. not exactly but after this.

neil: coming to you from beautiful california, los angeles. you know, i always wondered with all the problems in this incredible state, why do people stay here? i came out of a snowy, new york city last night. it was about, what would you say, 30, 35 degrees warmer here? that's why. that's why. so sure you will pay your

entire salary in taxes to put up with that because it is just so beautiful. it is so beautiful. it is a great state. it has a lot of great potential but for a lot of people here the pedal will start hitting the metal. two million nationwide, 400,000 in california, alone, they will lose their unemployment benefits if congress does not act by year's end which by my math is 33 days from now. liz macdonald says that isn't necessarily a bad thing. she is joined by lori rothman as well. liz, with your tough love approach as always, being the wicked genius you are, you are saying tough love might be okay? >> i don't want to sound like a heartless, mean person, here. neil: that we know. >> that we know, you're usually acquainted with, the common sense tells you and studies after studies have shown, studies in denmark and universities the longer people are on unemployment the longer they take to look for a job. they wait until the very end

to look for a job. three months into unemployment benefits that's when you're job prospects get even worse. the lomger you are in unemployment the worst your chances of finding a job. the other part of this is problem with california is, and a lot of states, california is borrowing from the federal taxpayer to pay for its jobless benefit insists state, something like 10 billion bucks. that is raiding other state fund to pay interest costs on that. raiding transportation funds or disability funds for other taxpayers. that is bad thing as well too, neil. >> i mildly disagree. neil: bottom line it will have an impact. the question is what kind of an impact. what do you think? >> i mildly disagree. here's the deal look, if california, nation at a whole, full unemployment, california's above the national average over 10%, i say let extension benefit expire, motivate them. get people back to work. don't give them the handout. but it is not. the ben bernanke, neil, last

week was explaining how the capacity of our economy is shrinking since the financial crisis. the economy does not have the potential to create enough new jobs to support our country and all of these people out there looking for jobs. so because there are not enough jobs out there, we need this benefit. if there is ever a good reason for government spending, this is it. let me tell you something, if congress in the budget crisis doesn't raise taxes and doesn't include meaningful spending cuts. i will be furious. if there is every reason for a safety net this truly is. >> california is portrait in miniature why tax-and-spend does not work. if tax and spend policies were the way to go california's unemployment rate would not be north of 10%. the staggering statistic here, neil, 35% of the two million unemployed in california have been unemployed for 52 weeks or longer. that tells you they have not been out there actively searching. once you factor -- >> there are no jobs. >> i get it. because of the state

policies as well. once you factor them into the unemployment rate you can bet the rate in california would ratchet up to 12%. >> emac you're one of my best friends here, here's the thing. in california about a million people took advantage of that unemployment extension. in the entire country, barely 100,000 new jobs created every month for at least last couple years. there are no jobs to be found. people are not being lazy. you can't incentivize them to do, that. california, troubled state as you know, neil, beautiful weather aside there is jobless crisis in our country. it stands alone. >> state manufactured as well. the issue, you had on "your world" show on fox news, neil, this couple of small business in california talking about people migrating out of the state. we have now 865,000 people migrating out of california and that is the highest in the nation between 2004 and 2010. so what are you going to have? you will have a lopsided government structure with nobody to pay for it that is the danger for california right now.

i'm scared for california and their jobless benefits. neil: all right. ladies. i want to thank you both very much. both points are right in this environment. a lot of folks here are going to nevada. i guess that is the big draw. think about it in the summertime, nevada gets up to 280 degrees. it is very hot there you about obviously it gets, it gets to the point where you don't care. you put up with the heat to leave the financial heat. not really 280 degrees. its close. been there in the up summer. one business leader meeting with the president. another meeting with the republican leadership. both are hear to weigh in on what they learn and what they said. this family used capital one venture miles to come home for the holidays. that's double miles you can actually use... sadly, their brother's white christmas

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neil: coming to you tonight from los angeles. you know, i always think of

the new york area that we own traffic. i don't think so. i think l.a. is giving us a good run for our money. but anyway, very good to have you back with us here because if they're not in traffic in washington they're in meetings. you should take stock in whoever plans meetings without the place settings and pencils and pads because there are so many going on of the president meeting with business leaders, middle class americans today. he had three or four of these like-minded sessions just since he was reelected. republicans meeting with a lot of ceos. so items seems like each side is meeting with everyone but each other. america, for airlines, ceo, nicholas calieo met with the republican leadership today. small business owner met with president obama yesterday. louis. neil: if i could begin with you, in meeting with the president did he give you any inkling as to how

confident he is of a deal by year-end? >> no and what that meeting was really about was the president asking us questions and listening to us about the problems of small business and what the administration could bring to the table to help small business. i got the feeling that they're reasonably optimistic. but that is my feeling. it has nothing to do with specific things said in the room. neil: so, louis, when a lot of small businessmen and women are saying, i had a couple on my fox news show earlier today, they think this has not been a friendly environment for small business or that the policies that are about to be pursued won't help them, did that ever come up? >> not really. you know, for me the environment for small business has been pretty good in this administration. i supply health care for all my employees.

the aca really helped me pay for it last year. i think getting money into the hands of consumers, continuation of the middle class tax cut will be a big help. i can tell you my business, which is a 33-year-old business, we were maybe most mature business in the room, was either down or flat for, from about 2008 on. and then in 2011 when we started seeing the stimulus kick in, which it takes that kind of time in the business cycle. we have been --. neil: but your business again is what? >> i'm in retail business. i sell records and cds and dvds. neil: okay. >> in a brick-and-mortar 500 square foot. neil: stimulus helped you? >> i think it helped my customers. and i think that was the message that most of these small business people, who were much younger with much more entrepreneural businesses for the most part were bringing to that table. which was, why we were there, basically to support the middle class tax cut.

to say that you know, political freedom and economic mobility go hand-to-hand. and i think. neil: yeah. >> as a ceo i'm always looking at the long term. my job is to plan for the future. neil: okay. and. >> i would love to see a country where economic mobility is easier for my kids. i grew up in a blue-collar house. i'm the first guy in my family to go to college. i got to own my own business and build my own future. neil: okay. >> that is the disparity we're fighting here. neil: all right. by the way, nicholas, if you could just pipe down here. i'm kidding. i'm kidding. let me ask you, when you met with the republicans, nicholas, they're under enormous pressure to concede on taxes but they're getting very worried that democrats, we're told, are not conceding on reining in spending. so they feel, or fear, they're going to be, they're going to be hoodwinked.

did in any of that come up? >> well i think, in a sense it did but just to clarify, neil. airlines for america has joined a group called the fix the debt campaign. it is a bipartisan, nonpartisan group. >> right. you want them to address this, right? >> we want them to address it. we base it on certain principles. we want it addressed but we think in order to address the problem both in terms of the fiscal cliff and just as importantly or more importantly the long-term debt path of this country which has direct impact on the health of the economy you have to have basically a three-legged stool. you have to have entitlement reforms. you've got to rein in spending, and you've got to reform the tax code. and what we have --. neil: i see one out of three of those being done right now. you're right. it could change. we don't know what is happening behind closed doors but right now i see a lot of talk about taxes. i don't see much talk about the other two ingredients? >> there is lot of concern about that. a lot of people are talking about entitlement reform an reining in spending.

neil: what did they fear? what did you or your colleagues say in meetings with republicans if it is too lopsided in taxes a bad deal is better than no deal? no deal is better than a bad deal? what? >> no. what our message was, in order to get a good deal you have to put something together that will have a marked impact on the economy and on markets. it has to be a creditable deal. the only way you can get a credible deal is to have all three legs of that stool involved so you can get something that will actually do something about the debt over the long term. and in order to get that you have got to have the votes to do it. so to get the votes you have to have a balanced package. so the republicans have said, yes, we will agree to new revenues. there has to be a lot more talk about entitlement reform and reining in spending so that you have a package that is balanced, can actually do something about the debt and get to 218 votes or either 51 votes or 60 votes. neil, that is what really has to be done.

i think part of our concern is too, this is being argued in public as you say. two sides need to talk to each other, and you've got to always be careful in a negotiation like this that anything you do, or anything you say can make the other side lock into a position and just as importantly and sometimes much worse, what you say can make your own side lock in which reduces your own room to maneuver. you need room to maneuver to get a deal of this magnitude and this complexity. neil: all right. gentlemen, i want to thank you for both taking the time. good to have guys that are interested in our greater national good whether on the left or right, small, medium, large business, thank you guys, very, very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. neil: you ever think they need a coach here, someone, a ref, divine intervention? the pastor is here to pick a fight. not really but rick warren has a couple of ideas how maybe god can intervene. do these two images even go

together?

>> over know what -- everybody knows what needs to be done and how we can figure out each gracefully can do what to be done to get to the promised land. >> the speaker had you come upstairs. neil: in order to get to the promised land, that was erskine bowles, co-chair of the president's debt commission along with alan simpson. he went on to say he is not optimistic this whole deal will be reached on fiscal armageddon you hear so much about by the end of the year. then of course it does get to be, you know, a hail mary pass for this economy. who better to address on all these issues than pastor rick warren. of course, saddleback church fame. you know it is interesting about the purpose driven life. we're on 10-year anniversary one of the most talked about and successful books i think since the bible. the ref rind is a very

modest man -- reverend. the purpose driven life, 32 million copies. by comparison, bill o'reilly's killing lincoln, one of the most popular books in the country right now, 2 million copies. the reverend has sold 16 times the number of books of bill o'reiily, which clearly tells me bill o'reilly is going to hell. "killing kennedy", half a million copies. he is way behind you. all in good fun. pastor, very good to have you. >> thanks, neil. good to be back with you. ironic i'm in new york city and you're in l.a. today so. neil: i know. my loss but our viewers gain just the same. pastor, what do you think, and is it important that a deal is reached by the end of the year? you often remind, you know parishioners and the like, a rush job can be a bad job. there seems to be, you know, great pressure on these guys to produce something by the end of the year. is it that big of a deal? >> well we do create false

deadlines often and push ourselves into things that we need to do a little bit slowly. it is more important to make the right decision than a fast decision. 10 years from today people don't care how fast you made a decision. they want to know was its the wise decision. but this whole gridlock thing we're looking at, and i've been listening to the program, often boils down to egos. i was thinking how similar when i see a marriage in gridlock. having pass stored and counseled literally hundreds of marriages that were caught in gridlock, i would say you need to do the exact same things to break the gridlock in congress and the white house that you do in a marriage. first thing you do is, you decide you're going to stop fixing the blame and start fixing the problem. as long, you have only so much energy. as long as you invest energy in the blame, which basically what we did during the campaign, you spell blame, b-lame.

and anytime you wasting time, not getting on problem. either fix the problem or fix the blame. that is first thing you need to do. second thing you need to do is you need to abandon malicious motive accusations. in other words, there are republicans who are patriots and there are democrats who are patriots. and a lot of campaign was more about the other guy is a jerk. that doesn't get you anywhere. blaming, labeling, only creates more hard feelings. only creates hurt. neil: that is why, you were going to host both the candidates. >> i was. i was. neil: you said it was environment and atmosphere that prompted you to shelf it. >> i wasn't sure --. neil: that was a great opportunity missed, right? >> i wasn't sure it was going to be that important. early in the election cycle, long before they chose the republican candidate both campaigns, mitt contacted me. i talked to both the white house and i talked to the republican campaign. everybody was favorable to doing this.

but as it got closer to the time, i thought, my heart really wasn't in it. i was thought maybe we could work in some other areas. when you start choosing to assume motivation, you're on shaky waters. i don't know my own motive most of the time so how can i judge yours? if you assume that a person's malicious motive is malicious, you're not going to get too far down the road in breaking that gridlock. you have to listen without interrupting. that is an almost impossible skill to do but you have to do that. and you have to let them say their full piece. neil: i don't buy that skill because if tv anchors were to practice is it i wouldn't have a job. here is what i have a problem with. i agree to the point they each point fingers and blame. senator durbin said other day, may i remind my republican friends they were piling up trillions of dollars in debt, making no

mention of the fact that the president has done the same. conversely republicans getting high and mighty at the president for reckless spending when they were pretty good at it. i think it is fair to say we're in the pickle we're in abuse both parties contributed to it. pass star, -- pastor, they don't get past that. i don't think a deal is constructed because they play these ridiculous games. >> one of the key things you do in a deadlock you have to get small wins. small wins starts the momentum going. you start moving forward. you will not get the big win on first day. neil: give me an example of a small win? >> i don't know. i would say find something you can agree on. look at that this all americans essentially want the same thing. what we disagree on the methodology and how to get there. everybody wants their family to grow up safe. everybody wants their kids to be healthy. everybody wants to prosper, have a job. everybody wants to be free. everybody wants our nation to be protected. now what we disagree on, what's the methodology of

how you get there? and there are two primary streams of thought. that is the freedom approach which is the less government and there is the more government or more control, less control or more control. i don't believe that you grow with control personally. i think you have to decide whether you want control or growth in most things. that when you let things grow, then you give up control in order to watch them grow. neil: interesting. that is very interesting. stick by, reverend. we'll take a quick break here and get into how this is ultimately settled and whether this is purposeful or even religious way to go about this. a moral way to correct this mess. if that is the case, back to this notion of, what side would god or jesus or name your particular savior, what would you do to balance this out?

what is the fair, decent approach to fix this mess, after this?

neil: continuing now from los angeles, california, with my friend and of course media religious sensation rick warren, the pastor, the man behind one of the most successful books ever written, "the purpose driven life". proud to say, an early reader of that. 32 million copies sold. pastor, good to have you back. >> thank you. neil: in every election this comes up would jesus be a democrat or republican. i don't want to get that trite. there is argument that people supported poor people and those disadvantaged and

by instinct he would be more liberal than conservative. he would be more generous and see that the government's responsibility or authorities responsibility to look at those folks. so by definition he would be a democrat, right? >> actually the bible doesn't say it is government's responsibility. says it is my responsibility. it is your responsibility and it is the church's responsibility. in matthew 25 jesus says, i was hungry and you fed me, and i was thirsty and you gave me drink. i was naked and clothed me. i was sick and voice in prison and you visited me. the problem with that chapter, the word government is not in it. it is not the responsibility of that government there, that passage. people take the words and say that is the government's responsibility. no, it is my responsibility. this is where i differ in many ways from both sides in this debate. i would have a third side. i would say, you need to incentivize generosity rather than tax people and

redistribute it. you see you don't get any credit, i don't get any credit if you tax me and then you give my money to help the poor. on the other hand, if you incentivize my generosity, for instance by deductions then i help the poor, and i get credit for it because my character grows by being more generous. you will find america, by far is the most generous country in the world. one of the reasons we have tax deductions that encourage positive behavior of generosity. you go to countries in europe where the tax rate is much, much higher. the generosity is almost nothing. why? because they expect the government to take care of it. the bible doesn't teach it is government's responsibility. it teaches it is my responsibility. and the more the giving is separated from the giver, the more possibility for waste, for graft, for misuse

and things like that. neil: that's what we're going to see. we're seeing more of that. now whether you agree with more government involvement or not, many argue, reverend, in your case you tipped your hand on november 6th, the day of the election you tweeted, why would anyone jobless today vote to remain the status quo instead of change unemployment? some took that to read, a put-down of barack obama. >> well, what i mean is this. we just spent 2 dal billion on an election and nothing changed. same congress. same senate. same white house. neil: true. >> now, in recovery terms when they say doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a difference is the definition of insanity. do we think things are going to change? well they won't unless people change because we've got the exact same system in place right now. and so we've got to go back to say, what's the people angle on this? why is there a so much

partisanship that we can't even come to a deal for the common good? neil: but in that case it seemed like you were saying, i saw where you're coming from, if you're jobless today and you don't like being jobless today, and why would you continue with the guy who has been leading the economy that has produced you being jobless today? >> i think there is a myth that the government creates jobs. entrepreneurs create jobs. the, you know, let me give a global perspective on this, neil. the last 10 years i've been in 164 countries. i spent most of the last 10 years when i wasn't at my church in little villages training young entrepreneurs in developing countries. i watched one country, the country of rwanda we're doing the peace plan there, the poverty rate decreased by 10% in the last eight years. we're seeing this because we teach real simple things. like how do you create jobs?

and iiuse in a rural agrarian area i use c, o, w, s. a great company is cows. first, the customer must benefit. if you don't have a customer and you don't have a product, you don't have a business. so the customer must benefit. second a great company is o. the owner must benefit. if you don't make a profit you go out of the business. so the customers benefit. the owner must benefit. the w is the workers must benefit. this is the difference by the way between most western culture businesses and developing countries because in a lot of developing countries the customer benefits and owner benefits and everybody else is slave labor. in america because we have, we have had moral ethics judeo-christian ethics for many years treat the workers well. s, the society benefits. the company gives back to the society. neil: we'll take a quick break. you astutely avoided my

question which i deeply admire how you did that. you did tip your hand with a comment about god and in games where you said i was at notre dame usc game where people were praying both sides would win. god didn't have an opinion on that. i thought that was very interesting. a lot of times i always ask, then why does god hate the new york mets. that is separate issue. we'll continue now with rick warren and get his view how we humanely come out of all this and still like each other. stick around

neil: continuing now with pastor rick warren. rick, one of the arguments for the rich paying more in taxes, i want to talk to a man of god about this, that is expected of them. they profited and lived very well and they have to give something back.

i always come back, and say, some are not paying any taxes at all, quite genuinely and comes now to a point where half don't that that seems a little screwy. be that as it may, do the rich have an obligation to pay more in taxes? >> first let me say, i will answer that question. first let me say the bible does not have a lot of economic system things saying this is, there are economic principles --. neil: it render under caesar, right? >> it has economic principles. the bible says that the more wealthy, the more blessed we are, the more we are to be a blessing to others. what the bible doesn't say is that somebody is supposed to take that from you and give it on your behalf. it says are suppose to give it. this is the difference between voluntary givinging and by the way the wealthiest people in america, i take people like bill gates or warren buffett, look what they're doing. they are the most generous. they are the most generous

people. bill gates has given $70 billion toward health care all around the world. so how can you fault that? but here's the thing. he gets benefit of it. neil: do the rich have a difficult time? passage says easier for a rich person to go through the eye of a needle than to get to heaven. should you plan dressing lightly after you die because it will be hot where you're going? >> we have to do what i call the stewardship of affluence and the stewardship of influence. if i were to say to you, neil, at the end of this year the american dollar is no longer going to be available. we're going to switch to the japanese general. what would you do? if you were a smart man you would switch as much of your assets into japanese yen as possible right now, maintain only enough dollars to get you there to the end of the

year. the bible says this is storing up treasure in heaven. you can't take it with you but you can send it on ahead. you send it on ahead by investing in people who are going there. when you help other people, the bible says in as much as you have done it to me, jesus said, you have done it to others. you can't serve god directly because you can't see him. the only way to serve god here on earth to serve god by serving others. we're to serve good with our wealth. we're to serve god with our talents. we're to serve god with our time and serve god serving others using those things. neil: doesn't mean you have to go to church? fewer people, maybe your great parish are going to church? >> we're talking about --. neil: fewer americans are even doing that. i'm guess i'm asking you in this society where things are changing the government is the holy altar? it is hard to make that sell, reverend? >> let me give you my own personal example. most people know that i am a reverse thither.

-- tither. we raised it another percent this year. i give away 91% all i mike. i live on nine. 37 years ago when my wife and i got married. we gave 10% of our income away. that is tilthing. each year we raised it 1%. on years we had raises or wind fall we would raise it three or four or 5%. years there was tough time there was no food, we would only raise a quarter of a percent. after 37 years i give away 91% of my income and live on 9. that has been the most fun of my life. i would much rather be able to do that than have the government tax it and give it away. in the first place i trust myself to give it away better than i trust them. neil: all right. reverend, that is well-put. real quickly, do you think god prefers fox business over cnbc? >> probably. i don't know. you know, because i'm on fox

right now i would say [laughing] neil: pastor, seriously, pulling your leg. "the purpose driven life" is the book. one greatest books and most inspirational. he is a class act. >> thank you. neil: rick warren, saddleback church. pastor extraordinaire. keep that in mind. you heard it here [ male announcer ] at humana, we understand the value of quality time and personal attention. which is why we are proud to partner with health care professionals who understand the difference that quality time with our members can make... that's a very nice cake! ohh! [ giggles ] [ male announcer ] humana thanks the physicians, nurses, hospitals, pharmacists and other health professionals who helped us achieve the highest average star rating among national medicare companies... and become the firsand only national medicare advantage company to achieve a 5-star rating for a medicare plan...

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